by CKent45 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:37 am
foreverlurk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:56 am
CKent45 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:42 pm
I wouldn't expect much in terms of SW in Marvel products, or in hollywood in general going forward. It definitely rubs up against the rules they play by.
So... a woman shrinking to tiny size is somehow against those rules? I'm not sure I follow. I've heard the arguments that SW is seen at "demeaning to women", whereas GTS is "empowering", thus what's why GTS content is much more likely to happen, but I'm not 100% sure I buy it. It's such a common trope in books and comics, we just don't get it to happen in movies or TV series.
Anyways... I would have liked a tiny Ms Marvel, but at least there's still the comics :
Hmm... that's an official marvel comic you posted? Seems like they need to work on their editing and proofreading a bit.
Shrinking a woman is definitely against those rules. I've noticed that media has an increasing amount of playing with women's sizes in order to make them look larger/taller compared to men. Take this commercial for the disney star wars hotel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLS0X5B1eRg
Notice the Disney exec's height vs the actor hired for the spot.
Another example I noticed in Star Trek Online:
NIchell Nichols was around 5'3" tall (Uhura), Grace Lee Whitney (Janice Rand) was 5'8", whereas Jame Doohan (scotty) was 5'11", DeForest Kelley (Dr McCoy)5'10", Walter Koenig (Checkov) and George Tekai (Sulu) are 5'6", so they are each not quite as tall as Whitney (Rand), but noticeably taller than Nichelle Nichols and Leonard Nimoy (Spock) was just a hair under 6' tall, yet in Star Trek Online, the women from TOS Star Trek are portrayed as taller than all the men other than Spock.
Once you start noticing these things on TV shows and movies, it's hard to unsee them.
In the 80's, there were tones of shrinking cartoons, males and females, but I noticed that over time the trend has moved away from Shrinking the women, but the men are another story altogether. Women are not allowed to look weak in comparison to men in movies and television. Just look at how many Shows, movies and commercials men are portrayed as bumbling, incompetent, unintelligent and/or immature. Examples, Homer Simpson vs his grounded wife who is the cornerstone to the entire family. Yes, it's a comedy, but how many shows is that the case? Even look back to the 90's with Disney. In Aladdin, Jasmine's father was portrayed as a happless fool, while in Beauty and the Beast the same could be said for Belle's father.
In isolation, none of these things mean anything, however, if you look, it's not a show here or there, it's everywhere and it's constant. Another example- take the Avenger's Endgame scene with the women all ganging up on Thanos with the "She's not alone," bit. First, it was a direct copy from Infinity war, done not nearly as well as that one, which itself seemed a bit over the top, but these "girl power" moments happen so constantly and all over the place and they're pretty ham fisted. In the end, Carol Danver's really shouldn't have been able to stand up against Thanos. Maybe Scarlet Witch, who is one of the most powerful Marvel characters of all time, but not Carol Danvers, but even then, Scarlet Witch's powers are WAY more complicated and interesting than how they were portrayed on screen. The only reason to build the scene the way they did really would be because you wanted to create a message, and it was basically "girl power" over an evil man.
Going back to She Hulk: there are plenty of examples of that, as covered here in just the first couple episodes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LQ7B4TFOu4&t=462s
What you'll notice is that very consistently across mediums, showing women in a light where they are less than men in any way isn't something that really happens much any longer. Nothing against these women characters, but women are noticeably weaker than men physically speaking, and yet you always see women in media throwing 6' plus men loaded with muscle around like ragdolls. Batwoman was ridiculous with this, and as much as I enjoyed Scarlett Johanson as Black Widow, it was a bit had to suspend disbelief.
Where you do see women shrinking, I've noticed that it's always at the hand of or in the presence of other women, but it seems like it's much more sparing than it once was. A shrunken woman is by definition weakened, and the rules I showed above might have been part joke, but they were certainly not all joke. There is a document distributed around hollywood of things they will allow for women in stories these days, and I assure you that it is very much in line with those rules and expands on them in depth. Other things that were covered in the document were women can never receive power from a man (originally She Hulk got her powers from an emergency blood transfusion from her cousin Bruce, which gave her her powers in a far less extreme degree than Bruce, thus why she retains the ability to remain lucid, though even there there was some jekyll and hyde stuff going on). In the rewrite, Walters saves Bruce, not the other way around and she only gets powers that are at least EQUAL to Bruce if not greater because of a mistake SHE made.
Men are also not allowed to mentor women. Take for instance The Last Jedi. Rey went to Luke to learn, but in the end he didn't teach her anything at all. She knew everything already, and he was nothing but disappointment after disappointment until she beat the living tar out of Luke before leaving to rejoin the resistance.
As far as the Ms. Marvel Comics: those haven't gone over well and have sold abysmally. The character is not liked (nor is the more modern rendition of Carol Danvers), but they continue to push the character regardless. Marvel and DC comics have been cratering the last several years in terms of readership, and even there you may not see rules above 100% applied, but when you look, you start to see the same symbology and messaging.
On a surface level, small gives the impression of weak, thus why you shouldn't expect much SW from disney any time soon.
[quote=foreverlurk post_id=24294 time=1661651761 user_id=262]
[quote=CKent45 post_id=24290 time=1661622148 user_id=65]
I wouldn't expect much in terms of SW in Marvel products, or in hollywood in general going forward. It definitely rubs up against the rules they play by.
[/quote]
So... a woman shrinking to tiny size is somehow against those rules? I'm not sure I follow. I've heard the arguments that SW is seen at "demeaning to women", whereas GTS is "empowering", thus what's why GTS content is much more likely to happen, but I'm not 100% sure I buy it. It's such a common trope in books and comics, we just don't get it to happen in movies or TV series.
Anyways... I would have liked a tiny Ms Marvel, but at least there's still the comics :
[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/Cx7b4jSR/RCO021-1582388387.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://postimg.cc/xcpJV31g][img]https://i.postimg.cc/sgspSndF/RCO003-1582376632.jpg[/img][/url]
[/quote]
Hmm... that's an official marvel comic you posted? Seems like they need to work on their editing and proofreading a bit.
Shrinking a woman is definitely against those rules. I've noticed that media has an increasing amount of playing with women's sizes in order to make them look larger/taller compared to men. Take this commercial for the disney star wars hotel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLS0X5B1eRg
Notice the Disney exec's height vs the actor hired for the spot.
Another example I noticed in Star Trek Online:
[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/W1k7zNjd/TOS-Bridge-Officers.png[/img][/url]
NIchell Nichols was around 5'3" tall (Uhura), Grace Lee Whitney (Janice Rand) was 5'8", whereas Jame Doohan (scotty) was 5'11", DeForest Kelley (Dr McCoy)5'10", Walter Koenig (Checkov) and George Tekai (Sulu) are 5'6", so they are each not quite as tall as Whitney (Rand), but noticeably taller than Nichelle Nichols and Leonard Nimoy (Spock) was just a hair under 6' tall, yet in Star Trek Online, the women from TOS Star Trek are portrayed as taller than all the men other than Spock.
Once you start noticing these things on TV shows and movies, it's hard to unsee them.
In the 80's, there were tones of shrinking cartoons, males and females, but I noticed that over time the trend has moved away from Shrinking the women, but the men are another story altogether. Women are not allowed to look weak in comparison to men in movies and television. Just look at how many Shows, movies and commercials men are portrayed as bumbling, incompetent, unintelligent and/or immature. Examples, Homer Simpson vs his grounded wife who is the cornerstone to the entire family. Yes, it's a comedy, but how many shows is that the case? Even look back to the 90's with Disney. In Aladdin, Jasmine's father was portrayed as a happless fool, while in Beauty and the Beast the same could be said for Belle's father.
In isolation, none of these things mean anything, however, if you look, it's not a show here or there, it's everywhere and it's constant. Another example- take the Avenger's Endgame scene with the women all ganging up on Thanos with the "She's not alone," bit. First, it was a direct copy from Infinity war, done not nearly as well as that one, which itself seemed a bit over the top, but these "girl power" moments happen so constantly and all over the place and they're pretty ham fisted. In the end, Carol Danver's really shouldn't have been able to stand up against Thanos. Maybe Scarlet Witch, who is one of the most powerful Marvel characters of all time, but not Carol Danvers, but even then, Scarlet Witch's powers are WAY more complicated and interesting than how they were portrayed on screen. The only reason to build the scene the way they did really would be because you wanted to create a message, and it was basically "girl power" over an evil man.
Going back to She Hulk: there are plenty of examples of that, as covered here in just the first couple episodes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LQ7B4TFOu4&t=462s
What you'll notice is that very consistently across mediums, showing women in a light where they are less than men in any way isn't something that really happens much any longer. Nothing against these women characters, but women are noticeably weaker than men physically speaking, and yet you always see women in media throwing 6' plus men loaded with muscle around like ragdolls. Batwoman was ridiculous with this, and as much as I enjoyed Scarlett Johanson as Black Widow, it was a bit had to suspend disbelief.
Where you do see women shrinking, I've noticed that it's always at the hand of or in the presence of other women, but it seems like it's much more sparing than it once was. A shrunken woman is by definition weakened, and the rules I showed above might have been part joke, but they were certainly not all joke. There is a document distributed around hollywood of things they will allow for women in stories these days, and I assure you that it is very much in line with those rules and expands on them in depth. Other things that were covered in the document were women can never receive power from a man (originally She Hulk got her powers from an emergency blood transfusion from her cousin Bruce, which gave her her powers in a far less extreme degree than Bruce, thus why she retains the ability to remain lucid, though even there there was some jekyll and hyde stuff going on). In the rewrite, Walters saves Bruce, not the other way around and she only gets powers that are at least EQUAL to Bruce if not greater because of a mistake SHE made.
Men are also not allowed to mentor women. Take for instance The Last Jedi. Rey went to Luke to learn, but in the end he didn't teach her anything at all. She knew everything already, and he was nothing but disappointment after disappointment until she beat the living tar out of Luke before leaving to rejoin the resistance.
As far as the Ms. Marvel Comics: those haven't gone over well and have sold abysmally. The character is not liked (nor is the more modern rendition of Carol Danvers), but they continue to push the character regardless. Marvel and DC comics have been cratering the last several years in terms of readership, and even there you may not see rules above 100% applied, but when you look, you start to see the same symbology and messaging.
On a surface level, small gives the impression of weak, thus why you shouldn't expect much SW from disney any time soon.