SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

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SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by lbh » Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:09 am

In the second episode of She-Hulk, her boss meets her at a bar to talk and asks her to revert but as she has been drinking the alcohol in her system suddenly and she is drunk and falls down. It's not much sadly as we only see the top of her head and her clothing really doesn't become baggy but it is something ;) starts at 30 seconds in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy8gQpU-0bA

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by rscholar » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:28 pm

It was pretty minor but there was a nice subtly to it, especially the soft "whooshing" transforming sound and the camera angling down. I get the feeling despite being a somewhat raunchy sex-positive show that the writers aren't going to have her de-hulk into baggy clothes and make it look like she's stripping or something - everything seems to be the opposite dynamic where she'll wear civilian clothes and the difference is how it look on She-Hulk (when she has her suit on, the pants cuffs go to her feet; on She-Hulk, they go to calves). I'm just hoping for one solid on-screen full-body de-hulk.

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by foreverlurk » Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:48 pm

Was going to post about it... sooo many SW opportunities in Marvel. I'm still mad they removed Ms Marvel size-changing powers. :-(

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by CKent45 » Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:42 pm

foreverlurk wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:48 pm
Was going to post about it... sooo many SW opportunities in Marvel. I'm still mad they removed Ms Marvel size-changing powers. :-(
I wouldn't expect much in terms of SW in Marvel products, or in hollywood in general going forward. It definitely rubs up against the rules they play by.


Image


I'm not sure if this is list is entirely serious or not, however, I know for a fact that hollywood and especially disney are adhering to a new set of screenwriting rules the last number of years that are very much in line with the picture above. If you don't adhere to this kind of guideline, you will not see your writing on screen and you will also not be getting work there either. There is actually a formal document that was distributed out several years ago that outlines the above points and many more along the same lines, but I can't find it at the moment.
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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by foreverlurk » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:56 am

CKent45 wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:42 pm
I wouldn't expect much in terms of SW in Marvel products, or in hollywood in general going forward. It definitely rubs up against the rules they play by.
So... a woman shrinking to tiny size is somehow against those rules? I'm not sure I follow. I've heard the arguments that SW is seen at "demeaning to women", whereas GTS is "empowering", thus what's why GTS content is much more likely to happen, but I'm not 100% sure I buy it. It's such a common trope in books and comics, we just don't get it to happen in movies or TV series.

Anyways... I would have liked a tiny Ms Marvel, but at least there's still the comics :

Image

Image

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by CKent45 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:37 am

foreverlurk wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:56 am
CKent45 wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:42 pm
I wouldn't expect much in terms of SW in Marvel products, or in hollywood in general going forward. It definitely rubs up against the rules they play by.
So... a woman shrinking to tiny size is somehow against those rules? I'm not sure I follow. I've heard the arguments that SW is seen at "demeaning to women", whereas GTS is "empowering", thus what's why GTS content is much more likely to happen, but I'm not 100% sure I buy it. It's such a common trope in books and comics, we just don't get it to happen in movies or TV series.

Anyways... I would have liked a tiny Ms Marvel, but at least there's still the comics :

Image

Image
Hmm... that's an official marvel comic you posted? Seems like they need to work on their editing and proofreading a bit.

Shrinking a woman is definitely against those rules. I've noticed that media has an increasing amount of playing with women's sizes in order to make them look larger/taller compared to men. Take this commercial for the disney star wars hotel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLS0X5B1eRg

Notice the Disney exec's height vs the actor hired for the spot.

Another example I noticed in Star Trek Online:

Image

NIchell Nichols was around 5'3" tall (Uhura), Grace Lee Whitney (Janice Rand) was 5'8", whereas Jame Doohan (scotty) was 5'11", DeForest Kelley (Dr McCoy)5'10", Walter Koenig (Checkov) and George Tekai (Sulu) are 5'6", so they are each not quite as tall as Whitney (Rand), but noticeably taller than Nichelle Nichols and Leonard Nimoy (Spock) was just a hair under 6' tall, yet in Star Trek Online, the women from TOS Star Trek are portrayed as taller than all the men other than Spock.

Once you start noticing these things on TV shows and movies, it's hard to unsee them.

In the 80's, there were tones of shrinking cartoons, males and females, but I noticed that over time the trend has moved away from Shrinking the women, but the men are another story altogether. Women are not allowed to look weak in comparison to men in movies and television. Just look at how many Shows, movies and commercials men are portrayed as bumbling, incompetent, unintelligent and/or immature. Examples, Homer Simpson vs his grounded wife who is the cornerstone to the entire family. Yes, it's a comedy, but how many shows is that the case? Even look back to the 90's with Disney. In Aladdin, Jasmine's father was portrayed as a happless fool, while in Beauty and the Beast the same could be said for Belle's father.

In isolation, none of these things mean anything, however, if you look, it's not a show here or there, it's everywhere and it's constant. Another example- take the Avenger's Endgame scene with the women all ganging up on Thanos with the "She's not alone," bit. First, it was a direct copy from Infinity war, done not nearly as well as that one, which itself seemed a bit over the top, but these "girl power" moments happen so constantly and all over the place and they're pretty ham fisted. In the end, Carol Danver's really shouldn't have been able to stand up against Thanos. Maybe Scarlet Witch, who is one of the most powerful Marvel characters of all time, but not Carol Danvers, but even then, Scarlet Witch's powers are WAY more complicated and interesting than how they were portrayed on screen. The only reason to build the scene the way they did really would be because you wanted to create a message, and it was basically "girl power" over an evil man.

Going back to She Hulk: there are plenty of examples of that, as covered here in just the first couple episodes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LQ7B4TFOu4&t=462s

What you'll notice is that very consistently across mediums, showing women in a light where they are less than men in any way isn't something that really happens much any longer. Nothing against these women characters, but women are noticeably weaker than men physically speaking, and yet you always see women in media throwing 6' plus men loaded with muscle around like ragdolls. Batwoman was ridiculous with this, and as much as I enjoyed Scarlett Johanson as Black Widow, it was a bit had to suspend disbelief.

Where you do see women shrinking, I've noticed that it's always at the hand of or in the presence of other women, but it seems like it's much more sparing than it once was. A shrunken woman is by definition weakened, and the rules I showed above might have been part joke, but they were certainly not all joke. There is a document distributed around hollywood of things they will allow for women in stories these days, and I assure you that it is very much in line with those rules and expands on them in depth. Other things that were covered in the document were women can never receive power from a man (originally She Hulk got her powers from an emergency blood transfusion from her cousin Bruce, which gave her her powers in a far less extreme degree than Bruce, thus why she retains the ability to remain lucid, though even there there was some jekyll and hyde stuff going on). In the rewrite, Walters saves Bruce, not the other way around and she only gets powers that are at least EQUAL to Bruce if not greater because of a mistake SHE made.

Men are also not allowed to mentor women. Take for instance The Last Jedi. Rey went to Luke to learn, but in the end he didn't teach her anything at all. She knew everything already, and he was nothing but disappointment after disappointment until she beat the living tar out of Luke before leaving to rejoin the resistance.

As far as the Ms. Marvel Comics: those haven't gone over well and have sold abysmally. The character is not liked (nor is the more modern rendition of Carol Danvers), but they continue to push the character regardless. Marvel and DC comics have been cratering the last several years in terms of readership, and even there you may not see rules above 100% applied, but when you look, you start to see the same symbology and messaging.

On a surface level, small gives the impression of weak, thus why you shouldn't expect much SW from disney any time soon.
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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by scidram » Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:52 am

Exception: Ant-Man and The Wasp movie.

Though Hope shrinks alone first in the movie and kicks major ass while small, there's a scene late in the movie where she's saved by Scott's relatively giant hand. Scott goes giant a few times--one great scene in a school janitor closet where normal-sized Hope somewhat solves the problem--but Hope NEVER goes giant.

But to your point, the scenes when Hope is relatively larger than Scott--inside the school and just after--are totally played for laughs at his expense.

Don't write off SW in the MCU completely yet. Ant-Man 3 comes out in February and features Hope, Janet, and Cassie, all with shrinking abilities.

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by CKent45 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:47 pm

scidram wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:52 am
Exception: Ant-Man and The Wasp movie.

Though Hope shrinks alone first in the movie and kicks major ass while small, there's a scene late in the movie where she's saved by Scott's relatively giant hand. Scott goes giant a few times--one great scene in a school janitor closet where normal-sized Hope somewhat solves the problem--but Hope NEVER goes giant.

But to your point, the scenes when Hope is relatively larger than Scott--inside the school and just after--are totally played for laughs at his expense.

Don't write off SW in the MCU completely yet. Ant-Man 3 comes out in February and features Hope, Janet, and Cassie, all with shrinking abilities.
I think that your example actually makes my point more than undermines it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flS6D6P73vs

It's not just that it's played for laughs, it's that the hero of this movie is made into a joke. He is completely out of control throughout, while she is in complete control. His size is in constant flux as his suit malfunctions while she has complete control in an honestly not particularly well written scene that's entirely at his expense. On top of that, Wasp spends the entire time laughing at him for one mishap or another that was beyond his control, especially when he ends up shrunken smaller than her.

Even shrunken down to the size of an insect, she's the dominant character in the scene while his agency is undermined.

Again, it would be one thing if this was something that happened in isolation, but it happens so often that it's as if it's a requirement. I certainly don't expect a character to be treated seriously at all times, but this really is over the top.

You mention the part where Scott saves Hope by sweeping her away from danger in his hand, but wasn't that also where she lunges in and saves the day by incapacitating the villain (a woman) herself? Credit again goes the the lady in the scene.

I'm sure that Marvel will make some other decent shrinking scenes, but I think that this movie is the high bar and the next one will make this movie look like a masterpiece based off of what we've seen from phase four so far. The misandry of the MCU is off the charts now and the comments I've heard from producers and creators on these projects is that they haven't gone far enough.

Simply put, hollywood is incapable of writing women at all, let alone creating good SW content. I don't think they have the creativity to even take it to the level of The Ant Man and Wasp again. I have such little faith that I really have no intention of even looking at the next ant man movie, let alone spending money on it.
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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by scidram » Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:13 pm

Your points are all correct regarding the female over male characters issue of this post. Please forgive me for not articulating my contradictory point as well--it was around 6:30am here--that this is likely the only place we'd see SW in the MCU.

As for the next movie, with the subtitle Quantumania, there likely won't be any worthwhile SW scenes as they'll as be in the Quantum Realm, which will be trippy instead of interaction with normal-sized objects and people.

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by foreverlurk » Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:07 pm

CKent45 wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:37 am
Hmm... that's an official marvel comic you posted? Seems like they need to work on their editing and proofreading a bit.
Yes, 100% official it's from Ms. Marvel (2016), issue 32-33.
CKent45 wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:37 am
On a surface level, small gives the impression of weak, thus why you shouldn't expect much SW from disney any time soon.
That's why there's much more giantess content overall, I think SW is sometimes seen as demeaning or, like you said, as weakness. :roll:

*sighs*

BTW there were a few concept art for scenes that didn't make the final cut for Ant-Man 2 that were interesting... a scene in a swimming pool with Cassie and Scott on a small toy boat, and another playing in the backyard (they're not insect-size, more like mouse-size, and Cassie doesn't have a suit/helmet):

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by chocolatejr9 » Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:08 am

I know it's unrelated to the original post, but I'm just gonna say it: I want an SW version of the twerking scene from the newest episode.

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by rscholar » Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:36 pm

So in episode 5 we actually do get a little bit of de-hulking into big clothes.

Jen goes to get a suit tailored by a major fashion designer for superheroes. Her friend has her demonstrate the complexity of making clothes that fit both Jens and has her de-hulk into the suit she was wearing as She-Hulk (transformation is quick and starts in full-view before cutting away) while describing normal Jen as "small, impish". There are a few other moments before she picks up her new clothes where she's wearing the big suit and looking very small.

Starts around 1:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYWs2pMm-qs

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by shrinky » Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:30 pm

...aaaand, that's all they're ever going to give us. Now that she has a superhero tailor the writers will never have to deal with her wardrobe issues again.

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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by Bloodthirstybutcher » Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:34 am

shrinky wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:30 pm
...aaaand, that's all they're ever going to give us. Now that she has a superhero tailor the writers will never have to deal with her wardrobe issues again.
Being as this show has some of the laziest writing I’ve ever seen, it’s really not all that surprising lol.
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Re: SHe-Hulk minor SW scene

Post by subasubaski » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:50 pm

I'm still amazed that people got excited for this show because of potential size-related content. Why would Marvel spend more than a few seconds on this sort of thing? Kate From Lots had a whole movie where she wore a shrinking suit and they just did generic action shit. Direct-to-streaming exploitation flicks are a lot more likely to give us this sort of thing (but they don't because there's no good established SW property to turn into a sleazy B-movie, other than The Incredible Shrinking Woman, which nobody cares about in 2022).

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