Darkness and Mysogyny

[chesya]

I have had loving relationships with women and have never irl intentionally hurt anyone. I don't want a medal for this - it's just the way it's been. I just don't understand why in my minds eye I want to hurt women. I've lost several arty friends because I can't keep SW out of my artwork. In a recent drawing there is a woman dangling by her foot from the mouth of a cat with a woman standing terrified on a mushroom. The drawing is truly sadistic. Just shrinking someone is to hurt them. I know some people depict only fun, but this isn't real enough for me. To really really enjoy SW, I need to embrace the darkness and hope it never spills out into reality.

[Olo]

Well, now that we have a designated "dark" subforum, perhaps we can talk about why we want/need it.

I have written about the role consent plays for me in size fantasy. That word is key: fantasy. Your mind is not some house that you have to keep clean and tidy. It is literally larger than the universe and is bound to contain some unsavory currents. You have the right to explore, encounter, and process anything your mind generates however you please.

Chameleonette has waged a continued defense of M/f fantasies (typically featuring fatal vore), and back when I was on Tumblr I engaged with one such rants.

[jitensha]

Apologies but this is going to get ranty as fuck.

I really feel for and relate with Chesya and my fellow dark SW fans out there are going through. We were discussing this very topic during SizeCon micro this past weekend, not only during our panels, but in our socials which allowed attendees to video chat with one another. There's always been this big divide in the SW community that does not exist in the other, more populous corners of the size community like GTS/sm and GT/sm communities for example. When I joined this community almost 15 years ago, it was in an effort to try and understand these really complicated thoughts of feeling tiny, especially so the more horrible fantasies that included humiliation, torture, even death. I was very embarrassed and confused about them and although the VSW forum was a great resource for exploring that fantasy, the fact that it was segregated away from the much more populus and active forums like Min's or SW realm, and that there wasn't proper tagging nor many in-depth conversations like this made it a very intimidating place. Plus the fact that it stayed the same for like 20 years made it super stale. In my experience, SW forums in particular have been very unwelcoming to this sort of material, by both men and women, which has been personally very hurtful. All our fantasies are weird, and in fact that, a FANTASY...so why do some get to be the gate keepers on what is acceptable and what is not? Does it come from ignorance? Does it come from a purity complex?

Because I'm a pink-pussy-hat wearing liberal, I've worked hard my whole damn life and consider myself an independent woman, I've done women marches and fight for women's rights...but mama also likes to get spanked and humiliated, and sometimes even die in my fantasies for *le gasp* an actual man! Out of context, I'm sure the things my husband has done to me in the bedroom might be seen as abuse, but its always been consensual. For example, he's choked me out to the point of almost passing out more times than I can count during sex or a scene. What can I say, this tiny girl likes to get crushed Thank god that before we explored that IRL, we learned choking techniques from other people in the BDSM community so he wouldn't hurt me, and my husband also got CPR training just in case. Shaming community members and keeping information from being shared in kink communities is not only unfair, its freakin dangerous as hell for an inexperienced man who has dominant tendencies as well as the inexperienced woman wanting to participate in activities that could seriously injure her or worse. I mean I thought we learned this already with any sex or kink based community, suppression does not work. We will not lose our dark tendencies, so how about we actually address them with those instead of pretending they don't exist? It's just so fucking stupid and irresponsible...

Now I will admit, the shaming in this corner of the community has certainly gone down, things have gotten better in this community, but in lieu of investing in tagging, or coming up with another alternative, we again make a segregated dark side section. In the past, in eagerness to share my dark fantasies with others, I would post like crazy in these new sections only to get back lots of views and no feedback. The "crickets" would play into my fear that nobody wants to see this, I'm disgusting and broken. I promise you, nobody is going to post in the new dark section, it will be a ghost town like its always been in other SW forums. Yet at SizeCon, aside from our fluffy good-feels Relationships panel, the Darkside panel is our next most popular panel - and the loudest voices are usually the men with so much fear, or hurt or shame or self-hate because they have no outlet, even in their communities like this one. Some of these men are even brought to tears over the shame they feel. Why would we want to post our artwork or stories in separate section? Is this not our home? Are our deepest and most favorite fantasies not able to live in the main art or story sections? I already feel like an other wanting to be as SW, so why do I want to be on display in a segregated section to show off my darker side? Like hell no, you obviously don't want to look at my type of work, so I ain't gonna post it. As fetishits, I'm sure we can all relate to the feeling of not wanting to share our inner thoughts to avoid criticism and negativity...why as a community are we feeding into this anxiety producing behavior? All we want is to fit in, and for some reason, only this corner of the size community has decided to not accept us whole heartedly, instead of being (and I can't believe I'm saying this but) more welcoming than GiantessCity or Coiled Fist.

The side effect of all this that super grinds my gears is that many people have told me that they join GTS sites to explore dark size material, people who don't identify with GTS or sm and are put into uncomfortable positions so that they can find answers, scratch that itch, etc. It's especially bad for the women, many whom have told me they are pressured to roleplay Giantesses so that they can play out their vore fantasies for example. We all want to fit in, and if the SW community doesn't provide that space to explore, ask questions and mature, we will find our place elsewhere...it's just a shame that those places lead to other unfortunate consequences which already has befallen the only outcasts of the entire size community. So I ask, why are we discarding these people, our fellow tiny women and Giant men?

Elana had mentioned in another post I read recently that this forum is in our identifying stages. Don't y'all think we should take this opportunity to make this forum more welcoming and accepting of other related kinks? It's friggen 2020 guys...Just freakin tag. You can make them mandatory to avoid mistakes. This just feels like it's been an uphill 15 year fight. I already have to defend my thoughts, desires and dreams as a woman IRL, why is my own community which I love so fucking dearly having me feel the same way?? It's completely unnecessary and avoidable. Why do I still get people dismissing my fantasies as misogynistic when they've literally been brewed in the brain of a freaking woman?? To those people, suck my cunt you assholes!!



That is all.

[jitensha]

Ughh. I've been stewing on my last post for the last few hours lol. I'm still sour about the state and acceptance of darker SW content in this community, because most of us ALSO enjoy the lighter side of SW as well and don't want to have to jump onto an alt forum like we're doing some shameful back door deal.

I certainly don't expect this forum or the people who frequent here to accommodate us or even understand us, and although I may not agree with it, I can respect and understand that seeing darker stuff can trigger uncomfortable feelings in people. I certainly don't want to trivialize abuse or anyones trauma in anyway, so I'm sorry if my previous words came off that way. I have tons of friends IRL and online into SW who enjoy non-violent scenarios. They get their dommy big feels through shrinking others. Or their tiny subby feels in by being shrunk. And that's super awesome! I understand not wanting dark material to poison the pot. But I also feel frustrated about having to settle with the state of things when I already have had to settle on the reality of many things in life just being a woman, whether that be on the streets, on porn sites or playing video games. I'm always fighting to be heard and seen, and unfortunately NOT because I'm tiny and adorable! I'm always having to settle with not being the default, not being the audience, not being worth respect or attention. So instead of pushing my ideas on y'all when that hasn't worked in the past, I started thinking and I have a bit of a proposition for my fellow black sheep.

The VSW forum was very special to me. It was the first site I ever found in the size community, the first time I ever wrote or drew and shared my fantasies, and the first site I ever got encouragement from as I was often bashed for my vore or piss humiliation fantasies on Min's...so like, if we want to revive that, I spoke to my husband about it and he said he could make a new forum. I would however imagine an SW forum that would allow both fluff and violent material in the same board, but would really play on the dominant and submissive tendencies of the fetish in the visuals of the forum as well as the tags (i.e. snuff, shit, piss, torture, crush, etc). I'd put some educational stuff on the site talking about understanding yourself in the context of reality and fantasy and self validation. Ideally, I think the users we would be attracting would be VSW members who may also post sweet stuff, because heck, most of us also enjoy the sweet stuff too sometime. Thoughts?

[Sdk]

Seems a bit silly to criticize somebody for posting fantasy.

"Crushing, peeing on, or eating a SW???? How dare you?"

"Well, I also reduced her to the size of a doll......which happens to be total fiction / fantasy."

[Elana]

Of course it is silly. But humans are very silly creatures.

And while I have given up on understanding them, they are fun to watch from a distance

[HHunter1]

Oddly as someone who enjoys of both (Mainly as a lurker). I never thought of it having it's own forums or section as segregated till now. I kind of looked at it like enjoying sci-fi and one forum being about Star Trek while another was Star Wars. Or different sections for each.
Now maybe it's because I only really get to explore these ideas in private or here that I just seen these like this. But as someone who enjoys the more, lets say, direct stories and images I would thought the forewarning of different sections was good to help others avoid seeing what they don't want to encounter. As I wouldn't explore the SM sections on Giantess City.
But I am just as happy to tag my stories I might brave to share. I rather have everyone comfortable and included. But that might be a hard balance. Might be an idea to make a tag list. Might be a good idea either way. I would be willing to help with that.
Basically a post to say I'm on the fence?

[kira123]

Of course it is silly. But humans are very silly creatures.

And while I have given up on understanding them, they are fun to watch from a distance

For humans, as of now, 'very silly' is an extreme understatement at this point.

[jitensha]

It is indeed really, really silly!! I can respect the forum wanting to stay intact to preserve this safe space y'all have built here. But I also wonder how the community feels about us being accommodated? Because I don't want to invest on reviving the VSW unless there's a need for it.

Oddly as someone who enjoys of both (Mainly as a lurker). I never thought of it having it's own forums or section as segregated till now. I kind of looked at it like enjoying sci-fi and one forum being about Star Trek while another was Star Wars. Or different sections for each.
Now maybe it's because I only really get to explore these ideas in private or here that I just seen these like this.

I don't know that that would be a comparable example, because Star Wars and Star Trek are two distinct universes, they won't ever intersect. The thing is, many people who like dark stuff, also enjoy SFW stuff. Sometimes I draw my characters in very SFW, non-offending scenarios like this one:



But usually I draw these characters in non-con scenarios, where he may humiliate her or eat her, or he'll grow giant and cum on and destroy a whole city. He'll flick her ass with a rubber band until it's red, or force her to pleasure his massive dick, stick her up his ass..I mean, there's a lot of not nice artwork of them...the majority of it is not nice. But at the end of the day, the 'bit' between them is that they are consensual lovers to this fantasy and there's a lot of warm moments between them. It's a comic, so they can continue living in fiction without consequence...you know, like the actual fantasies in my head. They hurt no one! But these two, who I based directly off my husband and I, is something that speaks and relates to me, because one of the things that I enjoy the most about this fantasy is how important that trust is. I think it is beyond romantic, beautiful, etc to be in this relationship with basically a monster that can kill me easily if he wanted to but actually cares about my well being and goes out of his way to make sure I'm OK. My husband maybe a real scary asshole in a scene, but when we're done with sex and the scene is over, and I'm crying and shaking like a baby from the fear he just instilled in me, he provides me with loving aftercare, hugs, affirmations, warm blankets, food/drink, a shower if I need it. He'll even dry my very long hair for me which takes like 40 minutes. He will sit and comfort me until the adrenalin rush goes away, even though he probably scened so long so that I could come...it may not be romantic for everyone, but it's super fucking romantic for me.

This is why the segregation is so jarring for me. I want to share my work or consume media in one place, like most everyone else in the size community. I haaaaate jumping around, but that's always been the case. I'd post my fluff on an SW forum like this one or Min's, then go to Eka's Portal for my vore pics (get berrated because they're not F/m drawings), go to the VSW to post my humiliation artwork or read awesome stories, Go to GTScity to enjoy darker lesbian material, and then go to Coiled Fist so I can enjoy cruel giants, because 95% of all VSW images were from the POV of the giant male.

[kira123]

Basically, to these snowflakes or SJWs out there in this era, everything we enjoy, make pleasure, making a living or career off of, and escape from the darkness and stupidness of reality is a crime now. And telling them otherwise, would just give them the chance to call us -ists and -phobes to win a fight and then give us headaches thinking about our ways of thinking and what we saw is truth or whatever. Mostly because their either that petty, or that jealous of their misery that they want make everyone more miserable than them. Even if it means forcing politics into our only means of escape from reality, whether we make the content for our pleasures or everyone else's. If I want to make sexy characters, and make stories stories based on my fetishes, dark or not, then I'm doing it. I'm not bending the knee to these losers, because I know who I want to gear work into. To everyone that REALLY wants content without all the politics being forced in. This is why I choose to stay gray and in the center, because I want nothing to do with politics whatsoever, nor in any of my work, because all it did is brought out the worst in people and make enemies out of each other, even friends and family.
And speaking of GiantessCity, wouldn't you believe that I ran into a snowflake making a fool of me just for talking about how bad Rey from Disney Star Wars was? Because of that, I stopped commenting on there since. I wanted to delete my account, but I couldn't go through with it after the 14 years I've been on it, and meeting Bobvan, Jitensha, and other good people there for the first time. Thank god, I never go to the GiantessCity Discord after hearing how bad and snowflaky that turned out. And let's not forget about how I got called a hypocrite just for helping a friend out with his artwork on DeviantArt. He got reported, but still. And then there's last month, my WORST MONTH EVER this year, in another Discord server. I only went there to request classic anime into the RetroCrush app, and maybe make some new friends there. But NO, two snowflakes call me sexist and ignorant just because of my justified hate and paranoia towards tsundere girls in most modern anime (which reminded me of the times I used to got treated harshly like that in the past), and because of fucking KickVic, and me believing that Vic was NEVER a predator. I HATE these people! I HATE THEM! Especially when they're at their WORST on Twitter and Tumblr (and you will NEVER see me have an account on both of them, because I never WILL EVER sign up to them)! I wish they'd all get purged by the virus by now for all I care! But I guess that's just asking too much from shits like that. But whatever, I try to be as nice and honest as I could, and this is what I keep getting. More people acting like they're my friends, until they back-stab you, shame you, buzzword you and treat you like a damn simp. I even had friends do that shit to me, and they never even give me a chance to explain and prove myself that I'm not a bad person, nor make up for the mistake I did. But what to expect? You can't be nice, you can't be honest, you can't be yourself, you can't even understand them, not even with your own friends and family anymore. It's all pointless now.

But you know what they say, 'Welcome to 2016 to 2020 and onward'. The era where the snowflakes have their way, and normal people, old and new, can't be themselves or have fun lives anymore. Because they're hypocrites, -ists and -phobes to them, yet they're no different themselves. Fuck humanity, fuck politics, and most of all,... FUCK THIS ERA!

[HHunter1]

I'm sorry, bit of a pet peeve, but your to focused on my example and not the point. Maybe I should have used Country and Dance music or Box over diamond kites. Things that do cross. But it would still be the same point, some people like one and not the other. While others like both. I could see a good reason they are given a bit of separation.

But my Ultimate point is simply: I am willing to work with how this board would like to allow us to share our interest. If that as out own section. I'm happy. If it was mixed but with clear tagging. I'm good.

I am not saying your wrong or your wants aren't valid. Just, others should also be considered. A balance for the community as a whole as opposed to forcing our wants on others. Honestly, yes I like to be able to just open stories and read whatever. But I also like this, because I'm not looking for a, as an example, mauling story in a hay stack of happy pixie stories. Both a valid, but both are not what I want.

Side rant, they really berated because they're not F/m drawings. Gah, like every other artist there does F/something you'd think they would want more variety. Which is part of you point here. But here doesn't have the Tag search option.

[kira123]

I'm sorry, bit of a pet peeve, but your to focused on my example and not the point. Maybe I should have used Country and Dance music or Box over diamond kites. Things that do cross. But it would still be the same point, some people like one and not the other. While others like both. I could see a good reason they are given a bit of separation.

But my Ultimate point is simply: I am willing to work with how this board would like to allow us to share our interest. If that as out own section. I'm happy. If it was mixed but with clear tagging. I'm good.

I am not saying your wrong or your wants aren't valid. Just, others should also be considered. A balance for the community as a whole as opposed to forcing our wants on others. Honestly, yes I like to be able to just open stories and read whatever. But I also like this, because I'm not looking for a, as an example, mauling story in a hay stack of happy pixie stories. Both a valid, but both are not what I want.

Side rant, they really berated because they're not F/m drawings. Gah, like every other artist there does F/something you'd think they would want more variety. Which is part of you point here. But here doesn't have the Tag search option.

That was pretty much replying to Jitensha a bit, but then it lead me and my problems in the rant. Sorry about that.

[HHunter1]

I was actually replying to Jitensha too.
My posts are meant in a polite happy tone. I hope you understand my intent.

[jitensha]

@HentaiHunter1
For me the problem comes with the segregation. It doesn't work that way on other size websites. They have a section for stories. A section for art. There's no separation between dark and SFW material. The same on Twitter or other social sites. I understand that many may not want to see this sort of darker artwork, but my entire life I've had to scroll through like 95% do not want to see what I want. I am not catered to. Not on this website, despite being an actual tiny lady, nor on GiantessCity or on Coiled Fist, etc.

Like I said before, I certainly don't expect this forum to bend to my tiny whim. But I also don't have to keep settling if I have the capability of making something that I believe would cater to people like us. That's why I want to know if y'all are actually even interested.

The VSW boards was one of the few forums where I really felt I could be 100% authentic, even though I often felt intimidated being there. The forum was ancient and visually unwelcoming, and it was difficult to make strong connections as most users popped in and out like whack a mole. People rarely mingled, replies to forum posts took ages. It was not friendly with uploading photos and didn't give a lot of flexibility to the users. I loved the VSW but it certainly had its flaws.

There was a lot about the actual user experience on the VSW board that made it uninviting to women as well. One being the banner with the bobby pinned through the chest SW. Most of us tiny ladies don't actually like to die despite our thirst for vore content, humiliation, non-con scenarios, etc. Maybe don't open straight to gore if you don't want to scare away women who are exploring their sexuality ya know. It paints a picture that it's a snuff forum when some women just want to dabble in many some non-con shrink and kidnap scenario.

@kira123
Oh, the snowflakes have been around well before 2016. They've been making us all feel like shit since the dawn of time.
Don't let people like that get to you though, it'll drive you crazy! Try and understand them, and convince them with logic. If that doesn't work, then I just tell them we will agree to disagree! There's an MLK quote I always look back at when someone has really hurt me or betrayed my trust, and it's this one:

[kira123]

@jitensha
I know, this snowflake shit never would have happened if a certain Cheeto puff never made it into office in 2016. But yeah, logic, agreeing/disagreeing or just not caring is pretty much their weakness at this point. They're so close-minded and full of themselves, that they don't know how to think real anymore. Lol
Thanks, I did liked that quote from MLK. Love can be a powerful thing and it is something to look back on when someone hurts or betrays you.

[HHunter1]

Sorry, missed the point myself I guess. I thought it was a discussion of changing this board. I missed you were asking about a different board. I would likely join that. I can't say I would be chatty. I'm working poor, so moral support. But I'd likely add stories. I would add pics, but I can't draw.
Honestly enjoyed sharing at last few weeks of VSW. Would like to be social about me interests. And it would be nice not to have to hunt for hours for maybe one pic/story I enjoy.
Yeah, a less direct opening image might be good.

[Elana]

Well Jitensha I don't know in what glorious world you live where things don't get separated.
But even in something broad like hentai, they want to keep the guro stuff away from the rest.

[jitensha]

Thanks for your input @HentaiHunter1 !

Well Jitensha I don't know in what glorious world you live where things don't get separated.
But even in something broad like hentai, they want to keep the guro stuff away from the rest.

@Elana on sites like GiantessCity and CoiledFist things aren't separated. Darker conversations, stories and artwork can be shared in the general sections alongside SFW content. Like I said before, I respect the atmosphere that's been created here, I'm not trying to be combative or step on anyone's toes. I'm just echoing what Chesya was saying, as this type of shame and resentment is very prevalent in this community and very damaging to our mental health. For those into these type of darker scenarios, losing the VSW is a huge blow, and if I can provide an alternate space that can help me and people like me, then I'm definitely going to want to help. I'm not asking this place to change, and I don't think I'd be hurting this place either by helping the recently homeless VSW community. I'm just discussing it here because I thought the community at large might be open to allowing desegregation, making it unnecessary for me to create an alt board in the first place.

[HHunter1]

I would like to help and input more. I'm not sure how.

[shrinker_s]

This thread has really opened my eyes. I was not, to my own fault, aware of the division of thoughts in the SW\VSW environment.

Especially with the shaming stuff, which I think is pretty silly since shrinking a human isn't really a thing and shaming is not cool. I've been a very 'live and let others have their kink" type of person. If it's not my thing, I move on. If your looking to SJW the world, get a TOR browser and visit some of the onion sites out there.

I really thought of the VSW section on this board as more of an organizational tool. Like a folder in a file cabinate.

On many boards I get frustrated looking through "pretty pretty fairy love storys\pics". I enjoy VSW, I even get a little frustrated with the sm\gts, crush, feet, vore, scat, snuff, and things like that. Not judging, it's that I've sort of refined my tastes over the years. I would bet there are folks that enjoy gentle "size difference" art\stories involving fairys and not humans. A subset of SW I bet some find having to sort through all the other stuff to find that one diamond can get frustrating.

The loss of the VSW was a bummer, since it did introduce me to the works of Bobvan, Wellington, and Jitensha. I equated VSW to a Vegan resturaunt. Large returaunts offer Vegan options, but a lot of times you still need to sort through a large menu, look for the little symbols of "vegan option available" tags, and even then you can't be sure. Not to mention you may miss something really good, just because no tag was provided. With a Vegan resturaunt you know everything listed on the menu is vegan. You also know that those folks in the resturaunt are there for the same reason and arn't going to look at you weird.

I felt that the VSW section helped meet the needs to us VSW vegans.

If another VSW centric board opens, I will post there yet I hope that we can show a little respect to each other and that those that may not enjoy what we enjoy can get over it a move on.

Just my 2 cents

[Elana]

Personally I would see it like a tool for easier selection, especially as the tags have not been really adopted by anyone.

But it is an unfortunate truth that the VSW only ever existed because the SW community had at least a few very loud voices making the mainstream boards unwelcoming for that stuff

And while the voices have not been as loud lately, the whole reason for my current signature is that there have been voices calling for censorship of art they didn't like

[TheBigG]

I have had loving relationships with women and have never irl intentionally hurt anyone. I don't want a medal for this - it's just the way it's been. I just don't understand why in my minds eye I want to hurt women. I've lost several arty friends because I can't keep SW out of my artwork. In a recent drawing there is a woman dangling by her foot from the mouth of a cat with a woman standing terrified on a mushroom. The drawing is truly sadistic. Just shrinking someone is to hurt them. I know some people depict only fun, but this isn't real enough for me. To really really enjoy SW, I need to embrace the darkness and hope it never spills out into reality.

Don’t confuse fantasy with intent you can fantasied the hell out of being the dark lord but if you have no real world intentions then you shouldn’t fill the need to confine your art style in a way that conflicts with you desires. I come here to escape the confines of reality and so I accept the fact that so do others and who am I to judge another’s escapism

[ShrinkMaster]

especially as the tags have not been really adopted by anyone.

Or the tags are overlooked and you have to put up with the complaining of the careless ones.

Still, I don't care if there is an extra section for VSW or not. Since killing, maiming or similar things are not my interest or excite me, I look into every section to find good material anyway.
Of course I will make sure that in the future I post my few contributions in the appropriate section.

I personally think some people interpret too much into the division of the sections or take it much too emotionally.
For me this is a fantasy forum and so I understand and use it.

[WandererOmega]

Okay, I have been more of a lurker for many years and I still have memories in going into Yahoo Groups for some groups in Shrunken Women there. I have always enjoyed SW for many years even before I got into my first computer in the very late 90's. However, I never was into the vore, gore or the death of a SW because I considered that illogical. Why shrink a most beautiful young woman and then kill her? Punish, yes, Sex, yes, Maybe some torture, yes. Keep her naked, yes. But not killing the lady.
Also, I have run into a unique situation on Discord. Age discrimination because I'm over 65. I am 67 and I was in 1953. (As I said, I been into shrunken women for a log time.) In the two Discord Channels, "Size Institute" and "Far Isles Resort", I was called a liar when I told them my age of 67. They said I was underage and was lying to them. I have always told the truth and I don't believe in lying.
This is definitely Age Discrimination.
What can be done here because I would like to be on those SW channels. I would like an apology and compensation for what they did to me. Should one be called a liar and be banned because of you are over 65? That is what happened to me. I'll be glad to give them proof of it.
Suggestions.

[shrinker_s]

WondererOmega - while I don't know how to help you....the age thing is pretty messed up.

ShrinkMaster - no pressure here - would love to see you repost some of your work. Especially since soooooo much of mine is built off of the univers you created (so mayber a little pressure)